Pauleeeeee

Hey everyone, been lurking around these forums a while. First post!

Anyway, I've had a few things on my mind over the last few months which I haven't been able to find a good answer or method for. If anyone has could help me out with the questions I'm about to ask I'd really appreciate it.

First Question:
We're using Vectorworks and Cinema4D at my office. I think both are decent programs but I sometimes feel like we'd be much better off switching over to Autocad and 3Dmax. Now I've never used Autocad but I feel like Vectorworks can be the most temperamental program on earth sometimes. It can feel sluggish as hell. One great feature it has though is its plugin Windoor. But apart from that I just don't know.

In regards to 3DMax, I've used it before and as a modelling tool I really loved it. Cinema just doesn't have the same 'speedy' feel. Also, the company is going to start doing some animations with GI but Ive heard that Advanced Renderer has some problems when it comes to animation and GI, mainly flickering.

Maybe it's like comparing two shirts that are exactly the same except one is Gucci and the other is a no name brand. Most people would go for the Gucci one because it's more expensive and automatically MUST be better.

Here comes the second question:
Do any architectural viz places allow much time for UVW mapping? From 90% of the work I see it looks like everything has just been given a texure with a standard unwrap mode. All the textures can look slightly repetitive and the whole scene seems a little sterile. I personally think that little bit of dirt, grime and cracks in concrete makes everything look alot more realistic and gives a rendering the human touch. Obviously this can only be done with uvw unwrapping but as you know it can be a bit of a long process.

Also, I find Vectorworks creates alot of unnecessary geometry. I usually find myself cleaning it up alot in C4D and even deleting alot of faces. Should we rethink our modelling process or just accept this cleaning up stage as part of the process?

Terrains:
These are just a pain in the ass for me unless we can get away with doing the site 100% flat (which is what I see from most Arc Viz places).
The sites created from contour maps in Vectorworks are always horrible messes. How the hell are you supposed to get road, curbs, etc to follow the contours of these terrains? I've sent threads on here with the same question but I've never seen a concrete answer.

Anyway, there's my questions/rant. Hope some of you can help me out-

Paul

STRAT

couldn't comment on VW as i've never used it. but, like formZ, and like any other cad program, it has it's strengths and weaknesses. Autocad is just the same.

Cinema is good for modelling, but you need to learn it to get the best out of it. i personally still model in cad (unless i'm modelling curves or 'organic' shaped stuff). just my preference. between c4d and max for modelling? i personally prefer max by a long chalk.

as for rendering, you are correct, cinema has trouble for gi animation rendering. not due to flickering (this isn't an issue whatsoever) but due to a bug in the program that slows down the render process (drastically) as sequential frames are rendered. frame 1 might render in 20 seconds, where by the time it's up to rendering frame 200 it might be on the 5 minute mark.

there is hope of a new AR, but no news on that. but, wait a few weeks and vray for c4d will solve all problems.


i never (or hardly ever) uvw map (unless lofting or sweeping). i'll use simple flat plain and box mapping in 99% of my work. never unwrapped in my life before. no need in architecture.
I'll cerainly add a more 'human touch' to my renders instead of the standard plain look. thats down to artist ability and experience. maybe 90% of the images you've seen are the more standard render. go look closer

again, you talk about firms giving you the time to do this? thats up to you and your abilities. texturing goes hand in hand with rendering, modelling and lighting etc etc. it's a whole package. you must manage your time wisely.


both


again, i cant answer that for VW. but i can for max or autocad. there are several different answers in all softwares. you must learn them.

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Hector

Hi:

Regarding VW: What version are you using?. I know there is a plug-in to link 3d models between VW and Cinema 4d, I've never used it as I don't use Cinama 4D.

On the 2d side Vectorworks works very well for me, slugissness my be due perhaps to a lack of enough ram?. Are you using all the features?. What is it that you can't do?

On the 3d side has some good features but modelling interface is not as good IMHO. However, I use it a lot in conjunction with Lighwave with excellent results. I create model to some degree of detail in VW and then refine and expand them in Lightwave modeller. There are some tricks I've learned allong the way to make the transition smooth. Vectorworks has a reaaly good dxf/dwg importer-exporter.

If you are getting lots of overlaping faces and unnecessary geometry you may be duing something wrong. Can you explin more?.
What I do get sometimes if flipped normals.

You do have to develop a modelling sort of protocol to take your model from vw to your 3d software of choice without problems. Like separating different parts of the model in classes or layers.

Regarding terrains, there is a Vectorworks add-on called Landmark which has a feature call DTM (digital terrain modeller) or something lika that. Which has a series of modelling options. Have a look at the Vectorworks website.

I would recomend you have a look also at the latest version of Lightwave (9.2) and a plug-in called LWcad. This combination is really powerfull.

I cannot say much abour Cinema 4d as I haven't use it.

Pauleeeeee

Thanks for clearing that up. I've known about VRay coming to C4D for sometime. I'm real interested to see how well it integrates with C4D.


See the thing is though, maybe there isn't a NEED for precise uv mapping but I certainly think it can benefit from it. Although maybe I have my head more in the movie or game area of the industry and not the arc viz area?

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Thanks hector we already use that exchange plugin. It's very good.

In regards to the sluggishness I spoke of I probably should have phrased that better. I meant sluggishness in the work flow sense of things. It just feels as if you really have to try so much harder and do so much more to get one simple thing done in VW. For example, the extrude along path feature in VW can be a nightmare and doesn't work alot of the time. I've seen alot of people having the same problem. The only way around it seems to be that you need to have as little as possible points along the path for it to work. But I think that's a serious drawback and shouldn't be an issue.

I really must give Landmark a try but again, the fact that I have to get so many extensions and find so many work arounds it makes me think that the two packages jusn't aren't worth the hassle.

By the way STRAT, would you have any examples of work you might have done that had a terrain with alot different elevations but also which had the roads and curbs, etc following this terrain precisely?

STRAT

lol, thought you might ask that. nope, i haven't to be honest. look into the shapemerge tool, this will cut out shapes precisely into a 3d terrain

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nicnic

I just dont get time for unwrapping stuff in my images, most of teh time if its for a still Ill add dirt in PS using overlays etc, and in animation its unlikely ill ever get close enough to something to warrant a custom unwrap.

good tileable textures are great as long as they are big enough (ie 2k+), get good making your own in PS using offset and good quality source images and you wont need to unwrap often.

For terrain I hardly ever bother being super accurate and dont use contour maps and terrain tool (unles its for planning, then I worry). I like to keep a clean mesh of quads and I find it easy to cut roads out and gutters using edit poly . shapemerge and moving vertices around. Edge select >>> shape for road paths then loft for UVW mapping.

I used vectorworks at uni studying architecture and it sucked. Then i used archicad and it also sucked. If you are serious about standalone arch viz use c4d or max, you wont regret it.

Pauleeeeee

Thanks for the input guys. One thing I will praise vectorworks for (even though it's a plugin) is Windoor. I rarely see windows or doors in arc viz that would stand up to scrutiny up close. It seems as though creating detailed windows or doors can take forever just starting with splines, etc. Maybe I just have a shitty technique.

Do you guys feel the need to have CAD software to specifically allow you to clean up an architects drawings import them in 3dmax/c4d/whatever package or do you feel that you do the clean up stage in those packages and just skip the CAD clean up stage?

Hector

Given that the information you receive won't allways be organized in the best way it will be very useful to have a cad package. For instance: Lightwave reads dxf files but doesn't recognize symbols/blocks. Using a cad package you can convert symbols/blocks to simple objects, re export as a dxf and then import into lightwave. This particular example may or may not be applicable to all 3d software but you get my point.