aaron-cds

And, HKS's clients are taking them up on the new technology -
including the Dallas Cowboys and Gatehouse Development (developer of the
W hotels), at a cost that ranges from $65,000 to $150,000 per project
based on the project scope.

This was what I based my comment on regarding the Neoscape animation. Of course architects are cheap, myself being an architect. All joking aside, architects usually don't have it in their fee to produce marketing renderings. They still need to show their design to the clients. This real time solution would work for that purpose. I'm just shocked at the notion that someone pays $65,000 to $150,000 for something so lifeless.

__________________
Aaron Coon, Conceptual Design Studio

oluv

ever considered crytek's cryengine2 for interactive archvis?
cryengine 2 has some more advanced dynamic lighting features with convincing realtime shadows and even some realtime ambient occlusion which really improves visual quality a lot.

a french company IMAGTP http://www.imagtp.com/uk/ had already licenced cryengine 2 for realtime visualisations and their results so far are really impressive. look at their yacht-show-video. the realtime shadows are really stunning, and there is nothing prebaked. also have a look at their demoreel:
http://www.imagtp.com/videos/IMAGTP.mov

i think the subtle light/object interactions are the most important factor for making a visualisation more life-like. although cryengine 2 doesn't support any realtime GI-lighting, the approximations with ambient occlusion etc. are already a big step forward in visual quality compared to the other 3d-engines.

Vince Paske

Ok, being a gamer I have to ask - Do you guys ever take some of those projects , load them up with guns and do a little deathmatch at lunch to blow off steam? It'd be a blast blowing out the windows of the luxury boxes with a rocket launcher.

Another (more serious) question - who runs the camera during the presentations? I know that clients and most of the architects I work with would have the world flipping upside down and quickly be out of control using w,s,a,d and mouse-look.

The herky-jerky motion and transitions on the demo video on the web site can cause motion sickness in most viewers (at least the 3 I've shown). You may want to smooth it up a tad.

Unreal 3, Gears of War and Bioshock are beautiful games with wonderful lighting and texturing (that use that engine). However, they take a long time (year ('s)) to develope with large teams pounding on them. How many people and how much time did it HKS take to do the Dallas Stadium for instance?

Most of the environments in those gorgeous games are in smaller settings, not large stadium sized environments. How does that factor into working with the engine, especially in regards to lighting? When I first read the article I was expecting to see quality achieved in those games and was dissapointed with what I saw, but I suspect it's because of those reasons.

The last section of the Business Week article states "Visualation may even become part of the design process...". I'm not sure how using an interactive approach with a game engine facilitates the process better than what many of us are doing in-house with VRay and a render farm. In fact, because I use a system where I can achieve very realistic materials and light fast, from any view, render, remote view it along with other designers as it renders (usually under a minute), tweak - the design process is amazingly fast.

I think its great what you are doing - pushing the envelope. I think all of us have thought about the possibility and "what-if's" regarding using game engines for AEC visualizations, and you are doing it and that is awesome. However, like the article also states, it'll be a while before our industry masters these engines to the level of a game developer. I guess that's why you are looking interns with game develp/program experience ;-)

crazy homeless guy

all very interesting.

you mentioned pulling information from Revit. i am curious to how streamlined your workflow is?
All very interesting.

You mentioned pulling information from Revit. I am curious to how streamlined your workflow is? What steps do you go through, and how much post Revit work is done?

As everyone who works in a firm, or has formal architecture training knows, ……design happens up to the last minute, the design is never finished, it is only frozen at certain points. How long is the process of taking the Revit information and transcoding it to the game engine? If it is more than a week tops (and I do mean tops,) the validity of real time as a interim presentation tool is not yet feasible.

The other concern I would have ……do you really want to give the client that much information? Everyone thinks they need all the information they can get, but often the less information presentated in a eloquent manner is better than lots of information pushed because you can.

Even with my concerns, I realize it is only a matter of time (10-20 years I would guess) before we are doing true virtual environments in architecture. They early work that your firm is doing will be provide vital information for how this develops. I think we will see game engine developers that are similar to the Mental Ray/Vray/Maxwell engines of today. Where the game engine is highly integrated in the process at all stages. For it to truly work, applications like Revit and other BIM programs need to have objects that can work directly with the engine so you are not spending time coding door swings, and window swings. …and even better if the suppliers provide models of their equipment with everything already set up. Great artists and film makers never had to spend the time programming whether a door was open or shut, they simply open or shut the door.

I realize everything I mentioned above is already in development, but it is so complex that the development process is in its infancy. How many consultants do you have that can barely provide you with AutoCad drawings that are usable.

To make truly interactive environments flow seamlessly into design it is going to take a lot of people getting on board so we are not reinventing the wheel everytime we roll out the door.

Keep on truckin’.

__________________
travis schmiesing

Spooner04

In defense of the group at HKS....not that they need it.


IMO, HKS has always been doing some pretty interesting and cutting edge things. They did a presentation several years ago at the university I was attending and were pretty pivotal in my decision to pursue Arch. viz.

Arch Viz. firms all over the place have been doing RT for several years, so I think most people know that RT in arch viz is nothing new. I think where HKS is really knocking it out of the park, is with the scope of these projects. It's one thing to do RT of a blacony or the inside of a room, but HKS's projects are huge. I've seen several of their RT projects and they are very cool. Especially when seeing them on a large screen and not some rinky dink monitor. Its not fair to judge them by the stills that you see on their website. I drive by the under-construction stadium twice a day and it blows my mind to think of its complexity and the man hours that must have been put into developing that project. Design Developement, Marketing, Construction Documents, HKS Viz, etc. It will be interesting to see what you guys do with the unreal engine. Believe me when I say that there will be plenty of people watching.


The problem that we face is convincing the client to pay for it. I appreciate the offer "to correspond with anyone interested." Will anyone from your sales and marketing department be available? : D

mrcamper

Ok, being a gamer I have to ask - Do you guys ever take some of those projects.....

.....Yep, but they will never see the light of day in the public domain ......

Another (more serious) question - who runs the camera during the presentations?

....we do most of the driving, but there are clients that are very familiar with the games and "Get behind the wheel" so to say.

The herky-jerky motion and transitions on the demo video on the web site can cause motion sickness in most viewers (at least the 3 I've shown).

....slow is the name of the game there. If you get a "queezy" client keeping the motion slow alleviates the motion sickness affect.

Unreal 3, Gears of War and Bioshock are beautiful games with wonderful lighting and texturing (that use that engine). However, they take a long time (year ('s)) to develope with large teams pounding on them. How many people and how much time did it HKS take to do the Dallas Stadium for instance?

.....31 people in the 3d modeling/lighting/etc., 12 in 3d design support and 2 in Real-Time development and production

Most of the environments in those gorgeous games are in smaller settings, not large stadium sized environments. How does that factor into working with the engine, especially in regards to lighting?

....boosting polygon counts is where most of our 10+ years of in-house customization to the engine and development tools comes in and we have specially in-house developed tools to help with lighting

When I first read the article I was expecting to see quality achieved in those games and was dissapointed with what I saw, but I suspect it's because of those reasons.

...yep, we don't have the team size and we typically only work on the RT version of a model for a week or less

The last section of the Business Week article states "Visualation may even become part of the design process...". I'm not sure how using an interactive approach with a game engine facilitates the process better than what many of us are doing in-house with VRay and a render farm. In fact, because I use a system where I can achieve very realistic materials and light fast, from any view, render, remote view it along with other designers as it renders (usually under a minute), tweak - the design process is amazingly fast.

...having been in the design process for many years, this process speeds it along considerably

I think its great what you are doing - pushing the envelope. I think all of us have thought about the possibility and "what-if's" regarding using game engines for AEC visualizations, and you are doing it and that is awesome. However, like the article also states, it'll be a while before our industry masters these engines to the level of a game developer. I guess that's why you are looking interns with game develp/program experience ;-)

...yep!!! we are continually on the lookout for uber gamer architects

__________________
A Noble life demands a noble architecture for noble uses of noble men. (FLLW, 1953) http://www.archengine.org - my Real Time blog - http://www.rtranger.com

mrcamper

note: that would be me ......

__________________
A Noble life demands a noble architecture for noble uses of noble men. (FLLW, 1953) http://www.archengine.org - my Real Time blog - http://www.rtranger.com

mrcamper

You mentioned pulling information from Revit. I am curious to how streamlined your workflow is? What steps do you go through, and how much post Revit work is done?

......we are four years into our Revit processes, but we are still defining the way we use and integrate the "new" Revit way and will be for some time to come. As far as the Revit to Game Engine issues we are wortking directly with Autodesk on this and they are being "Very" responsive to this and our gmae engine efforts.

As everyone who works in a firm, or has formal architecture training knows, ……design happens up to the last minute, the design is never finished, it is only frozen at certain points. How long is the process of taking the Revit information and transcoding it to the game engine? If it is more than a week tops (and I do mean tops,) the validity of real time as a interim presentation tool is not yet feasible.

....the iterative nature of architectural design is exactly why we work like crazy to limit our "build" time to a week or less in the production of our RT 3d environments.


The other concern I would have ……do you really want to give the client that much information? Everyone thinks they need all the information they can get, but often the less information presentated in a eloquent manner is better than lots of information pushed because you can.

....hehe, a continuous debate here.... at the highest levels, but the more open and complete design communication designers are winning out due to more sophisticated clients.

Even with my concerns, I realize it is only a matter of time (10-20 years I would guess) before we are doing true virtual environments in architecture. They early work that your firm is doing will be provide vital information for how this develops. I think we will see game engine developers that are similar to the Mental Ray/Vray/Maxwell engines of today. Where the game engine is highly integrated in the process at all stages. For it to truly work, applications like Revit and other BIM programs need to have objects that can work directly with the engine so you are not spending time coding door swings, and window swings. …and even better if the suppliers provide models of their equipment with everything already set up. Great artists and film makers never had to spend the time programming whether a door was open or shut, they simply open or shut the door.

yea buddy! there are a lot of people in a lot of adjacent industries all tied to the ttechnologies that will make all this happen already working on solutions to all these criteria.

I realize everything I mentioned above is already in development, but it is so complex that the development process is in its infancy. How many consultants do you have that can barely provide you with AutoCad drawings that are usable.

....few. very few.

To make truly interactive environments flow seamlessly into design it is going to take a lot of people getting on board so we are not reinventing the wheel everytime we roll out the door.

Keep on truckin’.

...will do, but in RT.

__________________
A Noble life demands a noble architecture for noble uses of noble men. (FLLW, 1953) http://www.archengine.org - my Real Time blog - http://www.rtranger.com

mrcamper

ever considered crytek's cryengine2 for interactive archvis?

yes... we could not easily (quickly) import the model sizes we have, but the engine does offer VERY compelling imagery

cryengine 2 has some more advanced dynamic lighting features with convincing realtime shadows and even some realtime ambient occlusion which really improves visual quality a lot.

a french company IMAGTP http://www.imagtp.com/uk/ had already licenced cryengine 2 for realtime visualisations and their results so far are really impressive. look at their yacht-show-video. the realtime shadows are really stunning, and there is nothing prebaked. also have a look at their demoreel:

http://www.imagtp.com/videos/IMAGTP.mov

i think the subtle light/object interactions are the most important factor for making a visualisation more life-like. although cryengine 2 doesn't support any realtime GI-lighting, the approximations with ambient occlusion etc. are already a big step forward in visual quality compared to the other 3d-engines.

...I have seen the Cryengine technology hands-on, but we deceided to stick with Unreal. We have spoken to the Crytek people at length and I will certianly be keeping an eye on how they progress with the engine in regards to 3d model presentations

__________________
A Noble life demands a noble architecture for noble uses of noble men. (FLLW, 1953) http://www.archengine.org - my Real Time blog - http://www.rtranger.com

mrcamper

__________________
A Noble life demands a noble architecture for noble uses of noble men. (FLLW, 1953) http://www.archengine.org - my Real Time blog - http://www.rtranger.com