do Sick Buildings cause Sick People or ?

vizwhiz · January 29th, 2004

do "sick Buildings" cause "sick People" or do sick People cause sick Buildings?

i have seen articles about indoor Air Quality being the #1 health problem in the US.
after 30 years of breathing problems and after 12 years of working in some of these "sick" Buildings i ended up having to give up working t an Office and i have been work (or more not-working) from home for the last 2.5 years

mainly due to breathing problems

are the Buildings that we so eloquently render actually causing health problems for some of us (and evidently a lot of people get sick at and/or from work)?

i am time-sharing my Time and efforts between doing 2d/3d renderings and selling Air Purifiers because of This problem

what is the Air Quality like at your Office? do people get "sck at and/or from work" ??

just more than idle curiousity

i am allergic to mold, mildew, dust, mondays, myself and BS in that exact reverse dis-order.

are we killing ourselves by going to work everyday?

i had to take out the carpet in my "new" old mini-condo (848 sq ft - thickness of the drywall = 828 sq ft) and replace it with 100% tile floor.

i dont even use a vaccum cleaner and ONLY use a corn broom to sweep us the dust-bunnies>

even driving in traffic is now a problem. i have an air purifier in my truck, too.

fortunately i am living next to a Tree Farm, but unfortunately the Phoenix metropolitan area in Arizona is one of the most dusty places in the US.

just idly curious if others are having (i hope not) any similar breathing problems.

i am holding my breath waiting to see what others Think

if you are having problems breathng at work let me know, i can help you out with This

Thanks

Randy

http://www.yourbestair.com/pcaz
http://www.yourbreaktofreedom.com/pcaz

crazy homeless guy · January 30th, 2004

hi randy,

the air quality in the firm i work for is so-so. i don't think i have ever felt sick due to the building i work in. our building used to be a ford dealership in the 1920's to ?? ...when we took over, we gutted the entire thing down to the brick, and concrete. that was in the mid 80's. we are currently undergoing our first major renovation since then. we are working through the renovation, so we have lots of smells and fumes that float around the office. i am sure some of the stuff i am breathing is not good for me. i have always been a firm believer in that whatever does not kill you will only make you stronger. which applies to several circumstance beyond this thread. that theory has somewhat been proved in the medical world. kids who develop allergies often were not exposed to pets and such as young children. their bodies don't know how to react. i am not saying this is always the case, but it does hold its own.

anyway, the real reason i am replying to your thread has to do with a project my firm did a couple of years ago. we were designing the new Phoenix Children's hospital. they finally selected a location at the corner of thomas and 18th (i think), which had an old building that used to be a hospital of some type. we tore down parts, renovated other, and added a new addition or two. two weeks after the emergency departments grand opening, they had to shut the entire hospital down. it turns out the crew cleaning the old building did not do a sufficient job, nor did the construction crew. the first big rain (rainy season?) the roof leaked, and the water got to remaining mold spores, and you can figure what happened from there. they had to shut down the hospital for a week and a half to come back in, and clean up the mess. mold can be very dangerous to humans, much less in an emergency room. i don't know how much it cost the hospital to shut down, but i am asuming it was a lot, and several headaches for both staff and patients.

luckily for us it was not our fault, but what a pain in the arse.

here is the final rendering of the main entrance, just for reference..

[ January 30, 2004, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: crazy homeless guy ]

njoel · January 31st, 2004

I get into this problem on occasion; and one thing is sure. A building will begin to deteriorate the moment it is started.

When a building is designed we look at a number of features. One being air flow, air quality, and air comfort. If I seal a building tightly, allowing the captured air to be refiltered and reintroduced, eventually the captured air loses its pureness and any microbial action, permeates the building. If I design minimal air leakage and infiltration, then I have to accomodate the attendent moisture or aridness associated with the infiltrated air, and upping the cost of conditioning it. but it being fresh air helps to eliminate much of the inboard microbe.

Now we come to the bacterial spore associated with inherent dampness. This will always be a problem because these spores grow where you can't find them readily. I have situations here presently, where a deadly spore grew into the wall structure and was not found until many workers became quite ill. There seemed to be some minor leakage from the roof that got into the wall structure, and because the air system does'nt really penetrate into the inner part of the wall the spores grew without hinderence until it began to get into the ceiling areas and then into the duct system. Can this be prevented? We can thoroughly clean and disinfect areas but bacteria is all around us. It is in the air. When you pull an old wall apart, see how much dust accimmulated within the wall, where does it come from?

Air purifiers do work; but only within given spaces, the interior of a stud wall does not receive the benefit of purifiers, and that is where the spores grow. But with the technology we have presently this is the only line of defense there feasibly is unless we design solid core walls ceilings and floor systems.

My thoughts only

Jape · February 26th, 2004

hmmm, i can recall a couple of weeks ago here in the netherlands when there was some commotion about a report of the governemnt. That concluded that due to the very restricted/minimized ventilation/airflow that a lot of new buildings had there was a high risk of too much radongas wich has a very low radiation. (DOnt know if this is the right word, tried to look it up in the dictionary but it wasn't in it

here in Netherlands we also call it Radon)The Radon is only a problem in concrete buildings though, supposedly the radon comes from Pebbleconcrete (again couldnt find it in the dictionary, i really need an engineering dictionary here :ebigrazz: , but what i mean is concrete that consists of pebbles ) and heaps up as the low ventilation prevents it from flowing away..

Research from a departement of the government estimated that between the 600 - 1000 people die every year because of this !!(16 million peeps here in Netherlands btw) The gas can cause lungcancer and leukemia. The government even stated that the whole sector needed to lower down the amount of radongas in new build building and they should do it before the first of april this year..

I'll check if i can find article (though itll probably be dutch...)

[im sorry for my bad english by the way, trying to polish it up.....]

[ February 26, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Jape ]

Jape · February 26th, 2004

Found a short piece in english from a report in the netherlands in 2000, maybe it clarifies my post a bit...

Quote:

Radon is a naturally occurring, radioactive noble gas. The element is released in the
course of the radioactive decay of radium, traces of which are present in the soil and in
stony building materials. In dwellings and other living and work spaces, radon can
accumulate in the air, resulting in a higher concentration than outdoors. Inhalation of the
likewise radioactive decay products of radon is believed to play a role in the incidence of
lung cancer.
In 1993 the Health Council of the Netherlands discussed the risks associated with
radon exposure in an advisory report about the Basisdocument Radon (Integrated
Criteria Document on Radon). The Council?s report drew extensively on a publication
by a committee of the US National Academy of Sciences, the so-called BEIR-IV report
(BEIR: Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation). The US Academy recently produced
another report on radon: BEIR-VI. At the request of the President of the Health Council,
a working group of the Council studied the new report, looking into whether the Health
Council?s earlier advisory report would need to be adjusted.
In the BEIR-VI report (as in the past) the risk associated with radon exposure is
derived from epidemiological research among mine workers. The conclusion, which is
endorsed by the working group, is that the central risk estimate has increased somewhat
? namely from 4 to 5 per 10,000 per WLM (the ?working level month? is a measure of
exposure to radon). In view of the margins of uncertainty, this does not constitute a
significant change. Based on the latest exposure data, the new findings suggest that for
the Netherlands, between 100 and 1,200 cases of lung cancer per annum might be
attributable to radon exposure. The central estimate is 800. In absolute terms, it is principally smokers who are at risk. This is because there appears to be a mutually
exacerbating effect between smoking and exposure to radon as far as the causation of
lung cancer is concerned.
The analyses in the US report and those of the working group are based on a linear
relationship between exposure to radiation from inhaled radon decay products and the
risk of lung cancer, where a threshold of exposure below which no damage occurs is
considered to be absent. The working group not only believes that this approach is the
most plausible, but also that it minimises the chance of the risk being underestimated.

January 30th, 2004	#2 (permalink)
crazy homeless guy Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 2,895 Name: travis schmiesing	hi randy, the air quality in the firm i work for is so-so. i don't think i have ever felt sick due to the building i work in. our building used to be a ford dealership in the 1920's to ?? ...when we took over, we gutted the entire thing down to the brick, and concrete. that was in the mid 80's. we are currently undergoing our first major renovation since then. we are working through the renovation, so we have lots of smells and fumes that float around the office. i am sure some of the stuff i am breathing is not good for me. i have always been a firm believer in that whatever does not kill you will only make you stronger. which applies to several circumstance beyond this thread. that theory has somewhat been proved in the medical world. kids who develop allergies often were not exposed to pets and such as young children. their bodies don't know how to react. i am not saying this is always the case, but it does hold its own. anyway, the real reason i am replying to your thread has to do with a project my firm did a couple of years ago. we were designing the new Phoenix Children's hospital. they finally selected a location at the corner of thomas and 18th (i think), which had an old building that used to be a hospital of some type. we tore down parts, renovated other, and added a new addition or two. two weeks after the emergency departments grand opening, they had to shut the entire hospital down. it turns out the crew cleaning the old building did not do a sufficient job, nor did the construction crew. the first big rain (rainy season?) the roof leaked, and the water got to remaining mold spores, and you can figure what happened from there. they had to shut down the hospital for a week and a half to come back in, and clean up the mess. mold can be very dangerous to humans, much less in an emergency room. i don't know how much it cost the hospital to shut down, but i am asuming it was a lot, and several headaches for both staff and patients. luckily for us it was not our fault, but what a pain in the arse. here is the final rendering of the main entrance, just for reference.. [ January 30, 2004, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: crazy homeless guy ] __________________ travis schmiesing

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January 29th, 2004	#1 (permalink)
vizwhiz Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: arizona usa, earth/universe Age: 56 Posts: 1,009 Name: Randy Sanders	do "sick Buildings" cause "sick People" or do sick People cause sick Buildings? i have seen articles about indoor Air Quality being the #1 health problem in the US. after 30 years of breathing problems and after 12 years of working in some of these "sick" Buildings i ended up having to give up working t an Office and i have been work (or more not-working) from home for the last 2.5 years mainly due to breathing problems are the Buildings that we so eloquently render actually causing health problems for some of us (and evidently a lot of people get sick at and/or from work)? i am time-sharing my Time and efforts between doing 2d/3d renderings and selling Air Purifiers because of This problem what is the Air Quality like at your Office? do people get "sck at and/or from work" ?? just more than idle curiousity i am allergic to mold, mildew, dust, mondays, myself and BS in that exact reverse dis-order. are we killing ourselves by going to work everyday? i had to take out the carpet in my "new" old mini-condo (848 sq ft - thickness of the drywall = 828 sq ft) and replace it with 100% tile floor. i dont even use a vaccum cleaner and ONLY use a corn broom to sweep us the dust-bunnies> even driving in traffic is now a problem. i have an air purifier in my truck, too. fortunately i am living next to a Tree Farm, but unfortunately the Phoenix metropolitan area in Arizona is one of the most dusty places in the US. just idly curious if others are having (i hope not) any similar breathing problems. i am holding my breath waiting to see what others Think if you are having problems breathng at work let me know, i can help you out with This Thanks Randy http://www.yourbestair.com/pcaz http://www.yourbreaktofreedom.com/pcaz

January 31st, 2004	#3 (permalink)
njoel Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: southern Pines,North Carolina Posts: 31 Name: joel clary	I get into this problem on occasion; and one thing is sure. A building will begin to deteriorate the moment it is started. When a building is designed we look at a number of features. One being air flow, air quality, and air comfort. If I seal a building tightly, allowing the captured air to be refiltered and reintroduced, eventually the captured air loses its pureness and any microbial action, permeates the building. If I design minimal air leakage and infiltration, then I have to accomodate the attendent moisture or aridness associated with the infiltrated air, and upping the cost of conditioning it. but it being fresh air helps to eliminate much of the inboard microbe. Now we come to the bacterial spore associated with inherent dampness. This will always be a problem because these spores grow where you can't find them readily. I have situations here presently, where a deadly spore grew into the wall structure and was not found until many workers became quite ill. There seemed to be some minor leakage from the roof that got into the wall structure, and because the air system does'nt really penetrate into the inner part of the wall the spores grew without hinderence until it began to get into the ceiling areas and then into the duct system. Can this be prevented? We can thoroughly clean and disinfect areas but bacteria is all around us. It is in the air. When you pull an old wall apart, see how much dust accimmulated within the wall, where does it come from? Air purifiers do work; but only within given spaces, the interior of a stud wall does not receive the benefit of purifiers, and that is where the spores grow. But with the technology we have presently this is the only line of defense there feasibly is unless we design solid core walls ceilings and floor systems. My thoughts only

February 26th, 2004	#4 (permalink)
Jape Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The Hague Age: 27 Posts: 88 Name: Jape Vennik	hmmm, i can recall a couple of weeks ago here in the netherlands when there was some commotion about a report of the governemnt. That concluded that due to the very restricted/minimized ventilation/airflow that a lot of new buildings had there was a high risk of too much radongas wich has a very low radiation. (DOnt know if this is the right word, tried to look it up in the dictionary but it wasn't in it here in Netherlands we also call it Radon)The Radon is only a problem in concrete buildings though, supposedly the radon comes from Pebbleconcrete (again couldnt find it in the dictionary, i really need an engineering dictionary here :ebigrazz: , but what i mean is concrete that consists of pebbles ) and heaps up as the low ventilation prevents it from flowing away.. Research from a departement of the government estimated that between the 600 - 1000 people die every year because of this !!(16 million peeps here in Netherlands btw) The gas can cause lungcancer and leukemia. The government even stated that the whole sector needed to lower down the amount of radongas in new build building and they should do it before the first of april this year.. I'll check if i can find article (though itll probably be dutch...) [im sorry for my bad english by the way, trying to polish it up.....] [ February 26, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Jape ]

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