It looks like my firm is making the switch to Revit.

Spongebob · January 14th, 2003

Hey all,

I know we don't talk about boring, old construction documents much, but this seems to be a hot topic lately.

My company bought 20 seats of ADT about two years ago and still they sit in boxes collecting dust. My CAD manager (moron) assumed the switch from Softdesk 8 would be a relatively easy one. He was wrong. When he discovered just how much work was involved and how little he knew about actually producing drawings he backed off. Ever since then he has been "too busy" to work on it. Once everyone else saw what his reaction was they were afraid to learn such a vastly different program.

I find that I am like a kid in a candy store when around new software. As soon as I found a way to smuggle a copy past the bosses, I ate it up. I spent about a year learning all that I could without actually having the approval to apply it to a big job. Now I am confident enough with the software that I am teaching it (ADT 3.3) at the local community college.

Now that times are slow.....eh-hem let me try that again....Now that times are slooooooooooow for us architects, everyone is suddenly interrested in switching to a parametric model builder for construction documents. However, it seems the majority of the office is leaning towards Revit. Arrrrrrgggghhh!!

Is all my time wasted? Do I have to re-live the past year only this time digging into Revit?

Mainly I am just being very long-winded in asking......

Has anyone here made the switch from AutoCAD or ADT to Revit? If so, was it a good decision? Any regrets?

Thanks,
Spongebob

John Dollus · January 15th, 2003

Maybe that '(moron)' CAD manager knew something you didn't. It has been known for quite some time that Autodesk planned on replacing ADT with Revit.

That said, time spent learning new skills is never wasted in my opinion. You can build off of the ADT methodology and apply that to learning new techniques within Revit. In two years, Revit won't exist either, so just roll with it.

John D

Spongebob · January 15th, 2003

If AutoDesk tells the industry to jump, it doesn't mean it will. Telling thousands of people that they have to re-learn how to draw may not be well received.

My cad manager knew alot about AutoCAD about ten years ago and I don't think he has done any working drawings since then. He is far behind in the times and refuses to admit it. I am the one who first informed my cad manager about AutoDesk's decision.

I can only assume that you are also a cad manager and took my comment as an insult to his profession and ultimately you. I can assure you that was not my intention and I am sorry if you took it as that.

As for the actual question I have posted, I welcome any informed responses.

Spongebob

Wojciech Klepacki · January 15th, 2003

Hi,
Autodesk has very strong position on drafting programs market. It is similar to Microsoft in operating systems world. They can afford to produce some annoying aplications, without looking at the clients needs. As always it's good time to sit and wait. After a few months we will see if the new product gain a success or it won't. I'm an architect and drafting plans, sections, etc is my primar job. I can do it mostly in AutoCAD. When I need some additional effect I turn to Illustrator or Photoshop, they both work fine with AutoCAD. I don't need "inteligent" building as in ADT or Revit. That is only my personal opinion and as a freelance architect I can always choose to buy or not to buy

)
rgds,
Wojciech Klepacki
P.S.
Once (when I was a student) I bought Softdesk 8 - it was my worst life decision (except my first wife).

Jeff Mottle · January 15th, 2003

LOLOLOLOLOL!

Quote:

P.S.
Once (when I was a student) I bought Softdesk 8 - it was my worst life decision (except my first wife).

Sawyer · January 15th, 2003

HMM,

This is interesting to me because I am trying to get my firm to merge in Revit. At another firm we worked in ADT2 and I really hated it. (Well for some things at least I think they let their standards drop pretty low for programing ADT.) But at the same time I really believe in the future of smart programs like Revit or ADT. I have taken the Revit tour and I really liked it. Unlike ADT it took minutes to learn not days or months. But I have not done working drawings with it. Yet.

Good luck. I hope you post more info as your story progresses.

bigcahunak · January 15th, 2003

Ok.
Here is me jumping into this conversation, as I was doing lots of thinking about this topic.

There are two ways of making architectural construction drawings:

Draw them all (plans, elevations , sections, tables...)
Have a smart program do it

there are lots of CAD apps out there claiming to "DO IT ALL" for us. But, I think that the only way to go about this "DO IT ALL" for us is the parametric way (REVIT, ARCHICAD, ALLPLAN...). The others (including autocad) are faliing into my first category. For construction drawings, autocad is no more then a digital drafting table.
I believe that as generation of architects will change, and architectural firms leaders will be those who learned Word, Excel and such in 1st grade, only then we'll see the reall change in the relationship between computers and the architectural practice. Seriously, having so many turn arounds in a single proffesion in a lifetime is too much. Not only switching to computers, but now its a whole new approach with this computer.
I think that parametric design programs is the future. They are relatively young, and even someone who knows one really good, often finds himself strugling on a view or a detail. As those apps will mature, they will be the only way to design, but mainly produce.

My first CAD system was DataCAD (version 5.0) which promissed to be as such (which it wasnt). Now after dissapointing from ADT as well, I'm seriously looking at Revit and Archicad.

I believe that you were right about your CAD manager, but it wasn't strictly his fault, as back then (4 years), Autodesk didn't know they will end up buying Revit. Nowadays, even though they say they "will protect their client investment..." I know they wont be developing ADT for too long, slowly kill it, and will make Revit as their main Arch tool.

Kerry Thompson · January 15th, 2003

Hi All
I know in New Zealand, there is a major push by AutoDesk towards Revit. In this market, ArchiCAD is very popular because it is marketed as “easy to use” – and it is (as well as being relatively cheap – ArchiCAD has gone into sites here for $US2,000 a copy where as raw AutoCAD cost around $US4,500). But to move past the “cookie cutter” architectural results with ArchiCAD requires as much effort as applying any other system and I think this will also go for Revit.
ADT is a very powerful and flexible system but difficult to learn for most users, especially those used to a paper based CAD methodology. One has to think quite differently from using AutoCAD/paper based processes and in a world where many users still do not understand how to apply xref file concepts, ADT is in a very different space. Once one understands the concepts behind ADT, the program opens up tremendous possibilities.
Revit, on the other hand is more approachable and “easy to learn” compared to ADT but limited unless one is prepared to really “learn” it. It is possible to build a “Revit type” system with ADT, using lisp and VB to define procedures and methods etc. but Revit will not construct an ADT. Revit is as much a defined process as a modelling tool whereas ADT is a tool box with little process - hence its power and flexibility but difficulty in application. The fact that ADT runs on AutoCAD also means that many users fall back to AutoCAD when the going gets slightly tough - leaving ADT in the cold.

As far as parametrics in Architecture is concerned, I do not feel that Architecture is that parametric – parts of it definitely are but the overall process is complex in terms of tangible and intangible issues. There is also a role for sculpture, being arbitrary and doing things because they look good or feel good – qualities that are difficult to role up in a parametric definition so we need tools that combine both worlds.

My hope is the concepts in all four technologies – ADT, Revit, Viz and Architectural Studio will combine more together in the future but, as mentioned above, AutoDesk is the “Microsoft” of CADD so they can do virtually what they like.

All comments are welcome.

Kerry Thompson

Paul Griger · January 15th, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by bigcahunak:
I think that the only way to go about this "DO IT ALL" for us is the parametric way (REVIT, ARCHICAD, ALLPLAN...). The others (including autocad) are faliing into my first category. For construction drawings, autocad is no more then a digital drafting table.

[IMHO]Yep, yep. FlatCAD is dying just like drawing by hand is pretty much a dead tool for doing CD's nowadays.

ArchiCAD's been doing the parametric thing for 20 years now. Revit's bravado and hype [not completely unfounded on their part] brought this idea back into the mainstream's attention enough for AutoCAD to gobble them up.

The many things that are automated by these programs enable quick changes and minimize oversights that FlatCAD can’t compete with. Add that the parametric programs can also export for a rendering program’s use and FlatCAD is DOA.

ADT is your old girlfriend who is now "just a friend" and will quickly be yesterday's news, long forgotten and beyond any usefullness. The parametric Architectural programs mentioned by bigcahunak, with hopefully new additional players in the market to turn up the heat, will be the future tool of necessity for the not so distant future architects. [/IMHO]

For what it's worth...

Paul [butting in on your topic] Griger

Wojciech Klepacki · January 15th, 2003

Hi,
If u need some specific "itelligent" objects like they are in Revit, ADT or ArchiCAD u can use them of course... if u like. But we r talking about 3D models being exported to Viz/LS or the others. Sometimes I need to make a restoration plans like this one:
http://www.cgarchitect.com/forum/fil...ile=parter.jpg
The best way to make it is to do it in AutoCAD LT and than export and colour it in Illustrator. This is my way. In Poland people don't use ADT or the others parametric programs becouse of:
1) the price
2) very strong AutoCAD position on the market
3) overall costs of training and "tailoring" to fit the needs
4) our architects need to exchange drawing with other engineers and they often (99% of cases) use AutoCAD
Personally I don't belive in automatic 3D model production.
rgds,
Wojciech Klepacki

January 15th, 2003	#4 (permalink)
Wojciech Klepacki Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Poland Age: 38 Posts: 203 Name: Wojciech Klepacki	Hi, Autodesk has very strong position on drafting programs market. It is similar to Microsoft in operating systems world. They can afford to produce some annoying aplications, without looking at the clients needs. As always it's good time to sit and wait. After a few months we will see if the new product gain a success or it won't. I'm an architect and drafting plans, sections, etc is my primar job. I can do it mostly in AutoCAD. When I need some additional effect I turn to Illustrator or Photoshop, they both work fine with AutoCAD. I don't need "inteligent" building as in ADT or Revit. That is only my personal opinion and as a freelance architect I can always choose to buy or not to buy ) rgds, Wojciech Klepacki P.S. Once (when I was a student) I bought Softdesk 8 - it was my worst life decision (except my first wife). __________________ .:: regards ::. Wojciech Klepacki

January 15th, 2003	#6 (permalink)
Sawyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: CA Age: 34 Posts: 1,563 Name: Sawyer Fischer	HMM, This is interesting to me because I am trying to get my firm to merge in Revit. At another firm we worked in ADT2 and I really hated it. (Well for some things at least I think they let their standards drop pretty low for programing ADT.) But at the same time I really believe in the future of smart programs like Revit or ADT. I have taken the Revit tour and I really liked it. Unlike ADT it took minutes to learn not days or months. But I have not done working drawings with it. Yet. Good luck. I hope you post more info as your story progresses. __________________ And you may ask yourself What is that beautiful house?

January 15th, 2003	#7 (permalink)
bigcahunak Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Israel Age: 36 Posts: 820 Name: Itzik Kelner	Ok. Here is me jumping into this conversation, as I was doing lots of thinking about this topic. There are two ways of making architectural construction drawings: Draw them all (plans, elevations , sections, tables...) Have a smart program do it there are lots of CAD apps out there claiming to "DO IT ALL" for us. But, I think that the only way to go about this "DO IT ALL" for us is the parametric way (REVIT, ARCHICAD, ALLPLAN...). The others (including autocad) are faliing into my first category. For construction drawings, autocad is no more then a digital drafting table. I believe that as generation of architects will change, and architectural firms leaders will be those who learned Word, Excel and such in 1st grade, only then we'll see the reall change in the relationship between computers and the architectural practice. Seriously, having so many turn arounds in a single proffesion in a lifetime is too much. Not only switching to computers, but now its a whole new approach with this computer. I think that parametric design programs is the future. They are relatively young, and even someone who knows one really good, often finds himself strugling on a view or a detail. As those apps will mature, they will be the only way to design, but mainly produce. My first CAD system was DataCAD (version 5.0) which promissed to be as such (which it wasnt). Now after dissapointing from ADT as well, I'm seriously looking at Revit and Archicad. I believe that you were right about your CAD manager, but it wasn't strictly his fault, as back then (4 years), Autodesk didn't know they will end up buying Revit. Nowadays, even though they say they "will protect their client investment..." I know they wont be developing ADT for too long, slowly kill it, and will make Revit as their main Arch tool.

January 15th, 2003	#10 (permalink)
Wojciech Klepacki Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Poland Age: 38 Posts: 203 Name: Wojciech Klepacki	Hi, If u need some specific "itelligent" objects like they are in Revit, ADT or ArchiCAD u can use them of course... if u like. But we r talking about 3D models being exported to Viz/LS or the others. Sometimes I need to make a restoration plans like this one: http://www.cgarchitect.com/forum/fil...ile=parter.jpg The best way to make it is to do it in AutoCAD LT and than export and colour it in Illustrator. This is my way. In Poland people don't use ADT or the others parametric programs becouse of: 1) the price 2) very strong AutoCAD position on the market 3) overall costs of training and "tailoring" to fit the needs 4) our architects need to exchange drawing with other engineers and they often (99% of cases) use AutoCAD Personally I don't belive in automatic 3D model production. rgds, Wojciech Klepacki __________________ .:: regards ::. Wojciech Klepacki

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January 14th, 2003	#1 (permalink)
Spongebob Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Detroit, MI - USA Posts: 43 Name: Jeff Ries	Hey all, I know we don't talk about boring, old construction documents much, but this seems to be a hot topic lately. My company bought 20 seats of ADT about two years ago and still they sit in boxes collecting dust. My CAD manager (moron) assumed the switch from Softdesk 8 would be a relatively easy one. He was wrong. When he discovered just how much work was involved and how little he knew about actually producing drawings he backed off. Ever since then he has been "too busy" to work on it. Once everyone else saw what his reaction was they were afraid to learn such a vastly different program. I find that I am like a kid in a candy store when around new software. As soon as I found a way to smuggle a copy past the bosses, I ate it up. I spent about a year learning all that I could without actually having the approval to apply it to a big job. Now I am confident enough with the software that I am teaching it (ADT 3.3) at the local community college. Now that times are slow.....eh-hem let me try that again....Now that times are slooooooooooow for us architects, everyone is suddenly interrested in switching to a parametric model builder for construction documents. However, it seems the majority of the office is leaning towards Revit. Arrrrrrgggghhh!! Is all my time wasted? Do I have to re-live the past year only this time digging into Revit? Mainly I am just being very long-winded in asking...... Has anyone here made the switch from AutoCAD or ADT to Revit? If so, was it a good decision? Any regrets? Thanks, Spongebob

January 15th, 2003	#2 (permalink)
John Dollus Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tampa Age: 38 Posts: 619 Name: John Dollus	Maybe that '(moron)' CAD manager knew something you didn't. It has been known for quite some time that Autodesk planned on replacing ADT with Revit. That said, time spent learning new skills is never wasted in my opinion. You can build off of the ADT methodology and apply that to learning new techniques within Revit. In two years, Revit won't exist either, so just roll with it. John D

January 15th, 2003	#3 (permalink)
Spongebob Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Detroit, MI - USA Posts: 43 Name: Jeff Ries	If AutoDesk tells the industry to jump, it doesn't mean it will. Telling thousands of people that they have to re-learn how to draw may not be well received. My cad manager knew alot about AutoCAD about ten years ago and I don't think he has done any working drawings since then. He is far behind in the times and refuses to admit it. I am the one who first informed my cad manager about AutoDesk's decision. I can only assume that you are also a cad manager and took my comment as an insult to his profession and ultimately you. I can assure you that was not my intention and I am sorry if you took it as that. As for the actual question I have posted, I welcome any informed responses. Spongebob

January 15th, 2003	#8 (permalink)
Kerry Thompson Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: New Zealand Age: 53 Posts: 151 Name: Kerry Thompson	Hi All I know in New Zealand, there is a major push by AutoDesk towards Revit. In this market, ArchiCAD is very popular because it is marketed as “easy to use” – and it is (as well as being relatively cheap – ArchiCAD has gone into sites here for $US2,000 a copy where as raw AutoCAD cost around $US4,500). But to move past the “cookie cutter” architectural results with ArchiCAD requires as much effort as applying any other system and I think this will also go for Revit. ADT is a very powerful and flexible system but difficult to learn for most users, especially those used to a paper based CAD methodology. One has to think quite differently from using AutoCAD/paper based processes and in a world where many users still do not understand how to apply xref file concepts, ADT is in a very different space. Once one understands the concepts behind ADT, the program opens up tremendous possibilities. Revit, on the other hand is more approachable and “easy to learn” compared to ADT but limited unless one is prepared to really “learn” it. It is possible to build a “Revit type” system with ADT, using lisp and VB to define procedures and methods etc. but Revit will not construct an ADT. Revit is as much a defined process as a modelling tool whereas ADT is a tool box with little process - hence its power and flexibility but difficulty in application. The fact that ADT runs on AutoCAD also means that many users fall back to AutoCAD when the going gets slightly tough - leaving ADT in the cold. As far as parametrics in Architecture is concerned, I do not feel that Architecture is that parametric – parts of it definitely are but the overall process is complex in terms of tangible and intangible issues. There is also a role for sculpture, being arbitrary and doing things because they look good or feel good – qualities that are difficult to role up in a parametric definition so we need tools that combine both worlds. My hope is the concepts in all four technologies – ADT, Revit, Viz and Architectural Studio will combine more together in the future but, as mentioned above, AutoDesk is the “Microsoft” of CADD so they can do virtually what they like. All comments are welcome. Kerry Thompson

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