Elliot

Hello

I know this is a controversial subject AMD vs INTEL. However, after reviewing many of the issues on this and other forums I have decided on my configuration. I build these workstations while trying to get 2 or 3 years out of them. The last big one I did was 3 years ago and it is still working OK.

Components:

Supermicro X6DA8-G2 Motherboard with 7525 Turmwater Chipset
http://www.supermicro.com/products/m...800/?chp=E7525

Super Workstation 7044A-82 Case (645 watts Power Supply)
http://www.supermicro.com/products/s...S-7044A-82.cfm
http://www.supermicro.com/products/c...C743S1-645.cfm

Dual 3.6 ghz 800 FSB Xeon with 1 Mb

4gb of DDR2 Ram @ 533mhz (I understand they are not available at 800mhz)

SCCI Raid 0 with two 73gb 15,000 RPM Seagates Cheeta's

One 300gb general storage drive possibly SATA

PNY Quadro 3400 with PCI Express (The Quadro 4400 is not available)

52x CDRW
16x DVD CDRW

NIC Card

2 Monitor LCD Viewsonic 17 inches

Does anybody has advise on this configuration? Is Raid 0 the way to go to optimize speed? Is the Supermicro 7044A-82 case a quiet and cool one. My last workstation sounds like a hurricane. Seriously, it is so noisy that is distracting and bothers everybody next to the computer. I am afraid of using water to cool down the Xeon's.

If I do some serious shopping around my local area and buy the different components from different vendors I could bring the price to around $5,800.00 to $6,200.00 If I buy from one single source (locally) it will go for about $6,500.00 plus 6% tax (no shipping).

Last time I had problems with some of the suppliers. One of them shipped (twice) the processors with broken pins. I took three weeks to get them to replace. Now I understand this is a common practice. Another vendor held my money for 3 weeks before he shipped the memory. I am afraid of buying over the internet to a fellow I don't know anyhting about. I once bought two laptops from an outfit in New Jersey (very expensive) they never worked right. The owner basically evaded all his responsibilities until he got me tired and I gave up. He was nice but his English was very poor, maybe that was a self defense mechanism.

There is an outfit called PC's for Every One in Cambridge, Mass. that will put it together for $6,900.00 plus 70.00 for freight and insurance and no tax and a one year warranty. I enjoy putting these things together, but I am getting too old and I am inclined to have them assemble the box.... Additionally the savings is not that much and somewhat offset by the warranty. Has anybody heard about this company? I understand their parent company is Source Code Computers or something similar. I searched the internet and found some average comments.

BOXX wants about $8,900.00 for the same thing. Dell can not even make it. A local guy can assemble for $6,500.00 but with 3.4ghz chips and a 550 watts power supply, everything else the same. Allienware claims not having access to the 3.6ghz and want about $8,000.00 with the 3.2ghz and a smaller power supply.

Any comments will be greatly appreciated. I used to be OK on all these things but now I am not very up too the technology. I am confused, for example, memory. They tell me the way to go is with DDR2. Supposedly the DDR2 fools the machines into thinking that it has more memory... or some story like that....

One of the tech's claims the AMD 64's is superior. Three years ago when I did the main workstation, I was so confused with the AMD vs INTEL issue that I did two workstations. One Intel and the other one AMD. I think the AMD was a little bit faster. However, my software seemed to crash more often with the AMD. This is not a scientific evaluation, it is based on my feeling. My nephew has that computer and it is still working perfect. SHould I buy the expensive video card or do what the ganers are doing, two video card link with some sort of attachment.

Thanks
Elliot

__________________
Elliot

bigcahunak

Looks like you are building a rocket there (NASA watchout...)
You only forgot to mention which programs you gonna be using with it...
AMD Opterons are faster (acording to reviews) with all programs accept MAX. Stability is on the Xeon side so that makes the decission for me.
If you arent doing video editing I dont see a reason for the expensive SCSI (HDDS and motherboard). Save yourself the loud noise and money.
For better performance the Asus NCCH-DL (with 6 SATA connectors) and Iwill DH800 (both at around $330) will be a better pick if you aren't going to be using SCSI and stay with no more than 4Gb of ram. They are both based on the P4 875 chipset which makes it cheaper. If you still prefer the 7525 chipset - Supermicro has the X6DAL-G for around $330 as well.
Good luck.

Elliot

Itzik,

Thanks for your response. I build these boxes like every two to three years and I try to make them in a way they will last. This time I am more confused than ever trying to decide. Too many options and too many opinions.

The reason for the SCCI is because I already have several big SCCI drives on my existing machine. I use Solidworks and Viz. I do some small video editing and a lot of Photoshop and Indesign.

Of the last 6 machines I built, some of them have regular Intel's, some Xeons and two of them with AMD's. I feel that Xeon's are a little bit more stable. Maybee this is just a feeling.

My favorite motherboard is MSI. Their support is excellent as far as I am concerned. I also got results with Supermicro. Their support is also good. At least these have been my experiences. This maybe the main reason for the board selection.

However, my primary area of concern is that I may be overdoing this. I have read several reports that claim the dual Xeon's are better for the people doing renderings. On the other hand I have some single processor machines and the difference is not that much. I have a laptop that works very good and I would say it is acceptable for renderings. Is all this reporting - analysis and over blown hype by the marketing and sales people to get the average user to spend more on machines. Are these machines needed because people like Discreet and Microsoft are turning out power hungry software.

I wonder if we do and in-house survey of our people on this forum.... How many of us are using double processor High end Machines versus single processor machines. On the average I can get the same results on all my machines. The difference is just a little bit of speed advantage. Do I need this speed.... I don't know..... if the awnser is that too get this speed I have to put 5 to 8 thousand dollars every 2.5 years.... it is simple.... No I don't need the speed.

I have several architectural firms as clients, from small to medium size. The main reason why the principals are turned off against 3D Virtual Reality is because the constant upgrades on software and machines. Of course they are also concerned at the specialize staffing and the lack of use os 3D reality as a contractual documment that will assign responsibilities to the contractors. On all the projects I am working these contractor - owner - architect relationship is a big issue. Renderings are not important too many of these people. Yes, they al like the renderings but the main focus is on cost overuns and change orders. This is the big time issue. If on top of the real life situations we throw the up-keep of the virtual reality needs their decisions are predictable.

Do wee need these machines, do we need this software? Does Discreet and the industry rely on our up-dates so Bill Gate keeps doing more. Can a skilled person do most of the work on a average computer using Viz 3. Do we trust the magazines and their reports. I am working on Realviz, how customer un-friendly group! However, the magizine reporters and "editorial experst" claim they are good. Most of their competitors sell programs with similar capabilities for 25% of the cost. There is even one German that makes a better product and gives it away free of charge. I guess a similar story with Radiance.

How many of you are using single machines....????? Should we keep funding the industry....? Like Discreet.... look at how many dollars we have spent on them, they launch un-finished buggy software requiring expensive machines to do renderings not entirely appreciated by the industry and on top they charge us when we call with questions about their inefficient programs.

Thanks
Elliot

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Elliot

mbr

Don't get me started on Discreet! Yes, I think it's criminal of them to not offere a down save so that an entire office has to up grade at the same time. I will be reevaluating what I use in the near future, especially with fR being offered for Maya (not that I like Maya, but I like choices - maybe they'll make if for Cinema?).

Your machines sounds wonderful! I agree it could be overkill, though, if you aren't doing a lot of rendering (but I don't know too much - I stick with Dell and rely on warranties, 3 years there, and I've used them to much success).

Elliot

Markus

Thanks for the response. I have been working on Lightscape and Viz for 8 years. If you look at the progress they have done with these software it is minimum. Basically there is not much difference on what you can do with the new version vs the old versions of the programs.

With each upgrade there is new hardware requirements in order to make use of the improvements in technology. There is new learning curves... Then the solution to cure the inefficiency of Discreet is to purchase Plug-ins.

I noticed most of us in this forum are small companies. Basically a few employees, in most of cases 1 or 2 employees at the most. Now look at the impact:

1. Almost every year an upgrade.....$$$$$

2. With each software upgrade there is a hardware upgrade needed...$$$$

3. Lately, a million plug-ins. Some of them with complicated licensing gimmicks.... Time $$$$$$

4. Cost of the learning curve because they don't stick to a certain workflow system..... Time $$$$$$$

5. Don't call them for advice. Last time I called Discreet it was about 70 dollars to talk with a kid that knew less than me. She was just asking me questions to me and reading out of a book with pre-made responses. If I would take her out of her sequence, she would leave on the phone for 10 minutes while reseaching for the anwser. Time $$$$$

6. Last time I called Microsoft with a problem with my E Mail and a virus, I spent 250.00 to hear that the solution was to re-format. To top it off they sent to me a questionaire. The guy wanted me to rate him......Time - Frustration $$$$$


Time - Time - Time - $$$$ - $$$$ - $$$$

This new machine that I need will not produce images that much different than what I used to produce with Lightscape in 1997 or 1998.

I think most people have had a similar experiences, I guess we are all hostages to Microsoft and others.

Thanks
Elliot

__________________
Elliot

bigcahunak

Elliot.
I wont be getting into the philosophic discussion of "should we be sponsoring firms like autodesk..." as I also tend to get somewhat pissed...
If we need those duals vs. singles - 95% of the time we DON'T, but during those 5% when you do your materials and lighting test over and over again... it is much nicer.
The single CPU chipset are always more powerfull. whatever works there (technology wise) finds its way to the workstation arena. A 4GHZ XEON will most likely be released months after a single P4 at that speed.
But for your topic:
For Solidworks I dont know but I assume it doesnt really matter.
For VIZ Xeons are better, but thats about the only program which is faster on xeons vs. opterons. Opterons also scale better than Xeons. Adding a second Opteron to the first one in a system would result in an avarage 22% performance bost, While Xeons are around 17% (accept for MAX/VIZ).
What is very important about duals vs. singles and cant be benchmarked is the feel. Multitasking becomes a breeze, and doing Photoshop work while VIZ renders doesnt feel like something is gonna freeze or crash on you... Its that confident feedback you get from your machine when you put your load on it.
I still think you can shave a lot of $$$ from that list you had at the top, and still stay with Xeons which I think is a good pick.

Allen

I've been thinking about this issue quite a bit also. Come to the conclusion to buy 2 machines with a KVM switch so I can control 2 machines with one monitor, keyboard, mouse.
For the same price as one duel machine, I believe the increase in performance will be much better.
Obviously the box for modeling will need to have a nice video card, the one for rendering can get by with a very inexpensive card.
Just a thought - just remember this is a business - a 30% increase in cost for a 15% increase in performance may not make too much sense.
My 2 cents.
(to be honest - think I'm frustrated enough with the windows world - I'm about ready for an Apple G5 - with one of the 23"lcds)
Good luck.

__________________
Allen Bussell
Project Manager
Paradigm Productions

Dynamic Realities, Integrated Marketing Strategies
3D Graphics, Animation & Interactive Multimedia

8275 Tournament Drive, Suite 130 | Memphis, TN 38125
www.2dimes.com | 901.685.7703 | 800.235.3174 Toll.Free | 901.531.8513 fax

Elliot

Itzik,

Thanks.... Solidworks requires a powerfull machine. It has its own rendering software. It is for mechanical 3D Modeling.

Yes about Discreet and all those guys. I know some of them on a personal level and they are good guys. However, they have business bosses to respond too. These guys (developers) are frustrated as we are... I guess it is the business environment that makes them behave in that manner.

Now, about the computer. Are you suggesting I get rid of the case..... The case alone is almost $600.00. Yesterday I visited a local guy and he showed to me the size of these Xeons. They are different and require a different case. The local guys has designed a special plate to mount between the motherboard and the aluminum case.

One of the Xeon guys I called in California said that he has given up on standard cases and will only use the special cases for the new Xeons. Another guys insisted the power supply of 645 watts is just too much power. He thinks a 550 watts will do it. Between the Power Supply and the case there is almost a $900.00 difference. Then the next big reduction comes out of the video card. The local guys suggest we use the Quadro 1300 (PCI Express). That is a difference of about 600.00.

When you add these two items there is a difference of $1,400.00. However, should I be concerned at the cooling and it's respective noise? The Supermicro case is supposed to be a little bit more quiet, but some of the reviews I have read they claim the opposit. If I go down to 3.4ghz then there is another $600.00 and then difference becomes 2K. Everytime I do these machines I want to buy as much as possible so they will last longer. This time I think I will be just throwing money away.

There is a 2,000.00 quiet case with no fans. It is a a motherboard attached to a giant heatsink with air circulation. The processors are also some how connected to the heat sink. Supposedly it is approved by Intel. This case comes from a Taiwan shop in California. I don't know much it cost.

I agree with you about the rendering and the light testing. Lately I have not been involved in 3D that much. But on this end the 3D comes in cycles. Sometimes I go for a month or two and then I get a lot of things to do. Those are the times that I get mad for not having up-graded. I do a lot of photoshop. I am doing all the brochures for our company as well as the video presentations. I have been also doing QTVR's to show the clients the before and after. These QTVR programs also do rendering and they are power hungry.

I feel like you.... Do it the right way.... but in a cost effective manner!!

Thanks for your time in getting back to me. I am not up with the technology anymore and all these things require research to make the correct decisions.


Thanks
Elliot

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Elliot

vizwhiz

hi There

Eliiot

here is my Thinking, "Randy's Rule of Thumb"

upgrade = downtime

**

upgrading is a cost that needs to be factored into all business estimates
There are people doing exquisitve 3d rendering on PIII's with 256 mb ram

but i guess it just Takes a little byte longer

**

Randy

Elliot

Randy,

I agree with you. My present system is 3 years old and it still works OK. I am still doing the research.

Here is a good article:

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_cont...opteron&page=1

See you
Elliot

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Elliot