Mental Ray standalone

CRD · December 17th, 2004

I am looking for some input on MR standalone licenses. (#1 on the list being most important question)

1. We have both Max7 and Viz2005. Will a MR standalone license work for both of these, even though Max7 uses MR3.3 and Viz2005 uses MR3.2? In other words will a new MR3.3 license also work with the older MR3.2?

2. The mental ray website says that it is licensed on a "per CPU basis", so that means that to render on our 3- dual processor netrender machines, I would need to buy 6 linceses? At $1500 a piece? Ouch.

3. Is the distributed rendering really that great? How many other cpu's can easily contribute with out the network traffic making it unworkable?

4. Does anyone know if Max/Viz is working on improving their version of radiosity? They have not substantially improved it since Viz 4 and it's really showing it's age, but I'm hesitant to invest big bucks in MR or move to a third party renderer.

5. Would you rather spend ~$9,000 to upgrade MR for netrendering, or invest in a third party renderer and buy enough for our 1 copy of Max and 7 copies of Viz?

Thanks for any insight.
Colin

mbr · December 18th, 2004

I thought that the licenses were for two processors, but it's still outrageous. The firm I am at now is debating which direction to go. Personally, MR is so absurdly priced that I can't see how it's even a choice, but we are investigating several options.

VRay and fR have very reasonable fees (with fR you can network render with as many slaves as you want, and do distributed rendering on 10 processors, more soon, not sure about VRay, but I believe it's similar). Brazil costs a little more, but compared to MR everyting is a steal.

I'd go with a third party renderer. Compatibility is also an issue and many plugins don't work with MR, but work with the other plugins. They are also faster and have much more documentation and support.

CRD · December 21st, 2004

From mental images website-
Purchase mental raymental ray is licensed per CPU and is available in two forms from the vendors listed below and from their worldwide business partners:

As an integrated component of the products listed below
mental ray Standalone is available in 32- and 64-bit versions for dedicated rendering solutions

That's why I'm pretty sure it's not per computer, but I was so shocked by that stance that I wanted to try and ask for other user's experiences with it.

As for the which other renderer to use, I've had terrible experiences with Cebas in the past with some of their other plugins. I also don't like how they price stuff out with fR and then finalShaders and then finalToon. Each with it's own license. I've sworn off all Cebas products, no offense to anybody.

I'm down to Vray vs Brazil. And even though it's a bit more expensive, I'm leaning toward Brazil because it seems like the more complete package. I plan on downloading a demo of each to try for myself.

Thanks for the input.
Colin

pixelperfectg · December 21st, 2004

If your focus is on Arch interior renderings, you can't go wrong with VRay (it's fast and realitively easy to setup a nice interior lighting setup).

If your focus is on Arch exterior renderings, then either Brazil or Vray will be great. I would again lean towards VRay because of the displacement/hair feature (easy grass setups)..which Brazil doesn't offer (yet).

I say all this because for me, it's difficult to setup a nice looking interior with Brazil. It takes me a while to setup the photon calculations and I just haven't been satisfied with any of my attempts thus far...but again, this is just my experience and others may find it wonderful for interiors? (IE, maybe I'm doing something wrong)

Jeff

CRD · December 21st, 2004

Jeff, since I have been to your very helpful website for insight into MR, I would have expected you to be pushing MR as a great solution. At first glance, I don't see any Vray or Brazil stuff on your site, but you sound like you have tried them all. And with all your trials with those three specifically, you would go with Vray? Does Vray have any toon/contour abilities?

And to answer your question, I do both interior and exterior renderings, so I need a solution flexible enough for both.

BTW, on a npr-type project last week, I used a mixture of MR methods gleaned from your site and other places. I put one instanced dirtmap in the self-illum slot of each material and then added a couple of direct lights and a contour line overlay - looked great with quick rendering.

Thanks,
Colin

CHE · December 21st, 2004

Quote:[BTW, on a npr-type project last week, I used a mixture of MR methods gleaned from your site and other places. I put one instanced dirtmap in the self-illum slot of each material and then added a couple of direct lights and a contour line overlay - looked great with quick rendering.]

Colin,

I was wondering if you would be able to upload that rendering.

Thanks,
Ernesto

CRD · December 21st, 2004

Not to get off topic, but here are the images I did last week.

But I guess it is on topic because I was not able to netrender these images because I only have one copy of Max7, so only 1 computer was able to work on these at a time.

I believe they took 30-50 minutes at 2400x1800 with higher than typical sampling settings (for me at least, min=1 max=16).

Ernesto, I took a look at your webpage and you have some great renderings. Really nice use of light and contrast, especially in the night renders. What renderer do you use?

CHE · December 21st, 2004

Colin,

Your conceptual renderings look great. Thanks for your comments about our work. VGFX is a partnership, sanzpont and I founded it. We use radiosity. I have been playing around with Mental Ray lately. I uploaded two conceptual renderings I did a couple of months ago with Mental Ray. What do you think?

pixelperfectg · December 21st, 2004

Hehe, yeah guess I've been branded a "Mental Ray guy". However I also use both Vray and Brazil. I don't "push" for one renderer in particular. That would be silly. What I use, might not work best for someone else. I just want to use whatever works best for a particular job (which is why I have purchased Vray and Brazil). Some jobs I use Brazil, some Mental Ray, and some Vray. Sometimes I even mix between them.

Vray has an atmospheric toon shader. It's ok, but not nearly as "tweakable" as Brazils. However you can always use Max's built in toon shader, or even render out a toon pass with Mental ray and composite it onto the Vray render (why not...it's free with max!).

There are things I like (and dislike) about Mental Ray, Brazil, and Vray. But I'm honestly very happy with my purchase of Vray. I still remember the first interior I rendered with it...I was thrilled at the even light distribution (something I had always struggled with acheiving).

I'm glad you found my site useful, those rendering look great! Good luck with your decision, I know it's a tough one!

Jeff

PS - I didn't mention Final Render simply because I've never used it and can't comment on it. But I'd research them all before making a final decision.

PSS - I didn't directly answer whether or not I'd choose Vray over the other two. I dont feel comfortable in answering that because I haven't tested the distributed rendering yet (and that's a priority for you). However I also haven't tested Brazil's. Maybe someone else will chime in on that topic and it will help you decide.

CRD · December 22nd, 2004

Che,

I like your renderings but would offer a few crits based on my own preferences. First, I believe the dirtmaps (or ambient occlusion) have an almost identifiable feel to them that is based on gradients of color, so your photographic backdrop in your images sticks out to me. Have you tried simplifying the background?

Second, I've found when dealing with a space that has different scales (wide open floor space vs. detailed trusses), that it's a good idea to use different dirtmaps. Otherwise you end up with too much black in the corners, it's like you need to let more "light" in there. Also try dirmaps that have values from dark gray to light gray.

What exact rendering method did you use? Different passes compiled in photoshop? Did you put the dirtmap in the MR suface component or the diffuse slot or the ambient slot or the self-illum slot? And are you using the native version in Max7 or the 3rd party version plugged into Max6? Just curious.

Jeff,
Didn't mean to pigeon hole you, but when I saw your name, I made a logical jump that turned out to be wrong. Surprised me a little because you did so many public (at least published on your website and cgtalk) experiments with MR and I haven't noticed you testing the others. Maybe you do that on their webboards that I don't monitor.

I'm playing with Brazil Rio right now, and it seems pretty nice, with a good variety of options. I'll demo Vray next.

Anyway, I'm really surprised that no one has commented on distributed rendering. I convinced my firm to invest in 3 dual-xeon blade machines that are only used for rendering, so I'm trying to utilize them to the most to show them what a great investment they are.

Has anybody tried distributed rendering on any of the bucket renderers?

Colin

December 17th, 2004	#1 (permalink)
CRD Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dallas, TX Age: 33 Posts: 112 Name: Colin Davis	Mental Ray standalone I am looking for some input on MR standalone licenses. (#1 on the list being most important question) 1. We have both Max7 and Viz2005. Will a MR standalone license work for both of these, even though Max7 uses MR3.3 and Viz2005 uses MR3.2? In other words will a new MR3.3 license also work with the older MR3.2? 2. The mental ray website says that it is licensed on a "per CPU basis", so that means that to render on our 3- dual processor netrender machines, I would need to buy 6 linceses? At $1500 a piece? Ouch. 3. Is the distributed rendering really that great? How many other cpu's can easily contribute with out the network traffic making it unworkable? 4. Does anyone know if Max/Viz is working on improving their version of radiosity? They have not substantially improved it since Viz 4 and it's really showing it's age, but I'm hesitant to invest big bucks in MR or move to a third party renderer. 5. Would you rather spend ~$9,000 to upgrade MR for netrendering, or invest in a third party renderer and buy enough for our 1 copy of Max and 7 copies of Viz? Thanks for any insight. Colin

December 18th, 2004	#2 (permalink)
mbr Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles and Connecticut....and Denver Posts: 1,266 Name: Markus Byron	Re: Mental Ray standalone I thought that the licenses were for two processors, but it's still outrageous. The firm I am at now is debating which direction to go. Personally, MR is so absurdly priced that I can't see how it's even a choice, but we are investigating several options. VRay and fR have very reasonable fees (with fR you can network render with as many slaves as you want, and do distributed rendering on 10 processors, more soon, not sure about VRay, but I believe it's similar). Brazil costs a little more, but compared to MR everyting is a steal. I'd go with a third party renderer. Compatibility is also an issue and many plugins don't work with MR, but work with the other plugins. They are also faster and have much more documentation and support.

December 21st, 2004	#3 (permalink)
CRD Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dallas, TX Age: 33 Posts: 112 Name: Colin Davis	Re: Mental Ray standalone From mental images website- Purchase mental raymental ray is licensed per CPU and is available in two forms from the vendors listed below and from their worldwide business partners: As an integrated component of the products listed below mental ray Standalone is available in 32- and 64-bit versions for dedicated rendering solutions That's why I'm pretty sure it's not per computer, but I was so shocked by that stance that I wanted to try and ask for other user's experiences with it. As for the which other renderer to use, I've had terrible experiences with Cebas in the past with some of their other plugins. I also don't like how they price stuff out with fR and then finalShaders and then finalToon. Each with it's own license. I've sworn off all Cebas products, no offense to anybody. I'm down to Vray vs Brazil. And even though it's a bit more expensive, I'm leaning toward Brazil because it seems like the more complete package. I plan on downloading a demo of each to try for myself. Thanks for the input. Colin

December 21st, 2004	#4 (permalink)
pixelperfectg Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: SC, USA Age: 38 Posts: 206 Name: Jeff Patton	Re: Mental Ray standalone If your focus is on Arch interior renderings, you can't go wrong with VRay (it's fast and realitively easy to setup a nice interior lighting setup). If your focus is on Arch exterior renderings, then either Brazil or Vray will be great. I would again lean towards VRay because of the displacement/hair feature (easy grass setups)..which Brazil doesn't offer (yet). I say all this because for me, it's difficult to setup a nice looking interior with Brazil. It takes me a while to setup the photon calculations and I just haven't been satisfied with any of my attempts thus far...but again, this is just my experience and others may find it wonderful for interiors? (IE, maybe I'm doing something wrong) Jeff

December 21st, 2004	#5 (permalink)
CRD Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dallas, TX Age: 33 Posts: 112 Name: Colin Davis	Re: Mental Ray standalone Jeff, since I have been to your very helpful website for insight into MR, I would have expected you to be pushing MR as a great solution. At first glance, I don't see any Vray or Brazil stuff on your site, but you sound like you have tried them all. And with all your trials with those three specifically, you would go with Vray? Does Vray have any toon/contour abilities? And to answer your question, I do both interior and exterior renderings, so I need a solution flexible enough for both. BTW, on a npr-type project last week, I used a mixture of MR methods gleaned from your site and other places. I put one instanced dirtmap in the self-illum slot of each material and then added a couple of direct lights and a contour line overlay - looked great with quick rendering. Thanks, Colin

December 21st, 2004	#6 (permalink)
CHE Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: St. Louis Posts: 821 Name: Ernesto Pacheco	Re: Mental Ray standalone Quote:[BTW, on a npr-type project last week, I used a mixture of MR methods gleaned from your site and other places. I put one instanced dirtmap in the self-illum slot of each material and then added a couple of direct lights and a contour line overlay - looked great with quick rendering.] Colin, I was wondering if you would be able to upload that rendering. Thanks, Ernesto

December 21st, 2004	#9 (permalink)
pixelperfectg Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: SC, USA Age: 38 Posts: 206 Name: Jeff Patton	Re: Mental Ray standalone Hehe, yeah guess I've been branded a "Mental Ray guy". However I also use both Vray and Brazil. I don't "push" for one renderer in particular. That would be silly. What I use, might not work best for someone else. I just want to use whatever works best for a particular job (which is why I have purchased Vray and Brazil). Some jobs I use Brazil, some Mental Ray, and some Vray. Sometimes I even mix between them. Vray has an atmospheric toon shader. It's ok, but not nearly as "tweakable" as Brazils. However you can always use Max's built in toon shader, or even render out a toon pass with Mental ray and composite it onto the Vray render (why not...it's free with max!). There are things I like (and dislike) about Mental Ray, Brazil, and Vray. But I'm honestly very happy with my purchase of Vray. I still remember the first interior I rendered with it...I was thrilled at the even light distribution (something I had always struggled with acheiving). I'm glad you found my site useful, those rendering look great! Good luck with your decision, I know it's a tough one! Jeff PS - I didn't mention Final Render simply because I've never used it and can't comment on it. But I'd research them all before making a final decision. PSS - I didn't directly answer whether or not I'd choose Vray over the other two. I dont feel comfortable in answering that because I haven't tested the distributed rendering yet (and that's a priority for you). However I also haven't tested Brazil's. Maybe someone else will chime in on that topic and it will help you decide. Last edited by pixelperfectg; December 21st, 2004 at 09:58 PM.

December 22nd, 2004	#10 (permalink)
CRD Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Dallas, TX Age: 33 Posts: 112 Name: Colin Davis	Re: Mental Ray standalone Che, I like your renderings but would offer a few crits based on my own preferences. First, I believe the dirtmaps (or ambient occlusion) have an almost identifiable feel to them that is based on gradients of color, so your photographic backdrop in your images sticks out to me. Have you tried simplifying the background? Second, I've found when dealing with a space that has different scales (wide open floor space vs. detailed trusses), that it's a good idea to use different dirtmaps. Otherwise you end up with too much black in the corners, it's like you need to let more "light" in there. Also try dirmaps that have values from dark gray to light gray. What exact rendering method did you use? Different passes compiled in photoshop? Did you put the dirtmap in the MR suface component or the diffuse slot or the ambient slot or the self-illum slot? And are you using the native version in Max7 or the 3rd party version plugged into Max6? Just curious. Jeff, Didn't mean to pigeon hole you, but when I saw your name, I made a logical jump that turned out to be wrong. Surprised me a little because you did so many public (at least published on your website and cgtalk) experiments with MR and I haven't noticed you testing the others. Maybe you do that on their webboards that I don't monitor. I'm playing with Brazil Rio right now, and it seems pretty nice, with a good variety of options. I'll demo Vray next. Anyway, I'm really surprised that no one has commented on distributed rendering. I convinced my firm to invest in 3 dual-xeon blade machines that are only used for rendering, so I'm trying to utilize them to the most to show them what a great investment they are. Has anybody tried distributed rendering on any of the bucket renderers? Colin

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